The new era of Kujenga
Interview by Jeriah Fredericks
Photography by Vuyo Polson
Styling by Ayabukwa Magocoba
A year ago I had no idea who Kujenga was. Okay wait, I lie. A friend had told me about the band, said I should check out their music. But this was before my ‘cultural awakening’ - before I started listening to the music Ntsika would rave about, before I had delved deep into the world of VERVE.
Once Ntsika and I started and he broadened my horizons, I approached Kujenga with a newfound appreciation. This was of course after the release of their SAMA Nominated 2024 album ‘In The Wake’, right in the midst of their ascension.
We were lucky enough to run into the band at last year’s Spotify Mother-of-Music event, and as star struck as we were we managed to open a dialogue with Zwide Ndwande, bassist and front man.
This interview is the culmination of the dialogue - taking place in two sessions (and many other run-ins).
We first sat down with Zwide, Owethu Ndwandwe and Matt Rightford last November just before embarking on their London Tour, and again this past July we sat down with the new face of the band after Matt and Tamzyn Freeks’ departure from the horn section to discuss the impending release of the frist single off their newly announced EP, Ransome.
Kujenga: From right - Thane Smith (guitar), Zwide Ndwandwe (bass), Bonga Mosola (trombonist), Owethu Ndwandwe (keyboard), Keno Carelse (drums)
So - who or what is Kujenga?
Zwide Ndwandwe: Kujenga is a 7 piece band specialising in Black improvised music. Or at least that’s what it started as. There is so much that goes into describing the music on not just a sonic, but a political level as well. These days it’s really more like a grassroots movement, where we just find ways to build connections with as many people as possible and to keep those connections alive.
We do that through the live performances, through the music that's released, music with meaning, music with a purpose. We find ways to align with things outside of music, like other worlds of culture.
Whether it be a fashion label we enjoy, a political action group or movement we’re connected, or a free art space that we can make a music space,- anything that aligns with the vision of a better world, and a world in which people can live fuller lives, we would want to be a part of that.
And so that’s what I think Kujenga is, outside of just being a group or collective of musicians who play instruments.
How did you get from the point of coming together to make music, to the point of a grassroots movement where you are now?
Owethu Ndwandwe: The intention was definitely always there. We just had to get the music started.
Zwide and I are twins, and we grew up listening to the music that our parents raised us on - South African Jazz and music from the rest of the continent. We never really got started on our instruments until high school, but once we did, that was the sound that we leaned over into, with a bit of our own taste coming through as well.
When you start out pursuing music you just stretch your wings anywhere you get the chance to, and we got to play at a church where we met the guitarist Thane Smith and became friends over the shared interest. He then introduced us to the drummer Riley van der Merwe as well, who he had gone to high school with. Naturally we started jamming, your typical garage band started. When we wanted to try our hand at performances, it started with the covers of music that we liked, and when that went well we started writing our own music.
Although we could only execute the vision in terms of original music with our first album in 2019, Nationality, we already had the themes and the motives. The passion behind it was definitely formed from our own ideas and where we wanted to be as a band. You could definitely hear what Kujenga was back then already. Once we had our foot in the music scene we started meeting more people and the band started growing - Matt Rightford, Tamzyn Freeks and Bonga Mosola came through and now the sound was bigger.
The idea was still the same though, and while there were more people listening and watching us, we now had the opportunity to vocalise our intent while we’re playing. The collective also grew past just us, into people outside of the band - other artists, media personnel, activists. This is where we had always wanted to be really.
What was it like becoming part of the band, and finding that family?
Bonga Mosola: It was easy actually. I had played with Zwide and Owethu a coupla times already, so the music was - actually let me not say the music was easy. It was hard to learn the music, at least coming from a traditional standpoint where you have a chart to reference. Learning things by ear was quite a big learning curve. The nice thing was that I came in with Matt and Tamzyn, so we went through it together.
Once we got into the swing of things it was really cool. It was more just developing friendships at first - we had no idea what it would turn into. At our first gig, I always say it was maybe 20 people and the rest were people that we had invited. So to see the growth and to be part of the growth through the whole of the ‘In The Wake’ era was just mind blowing, honestly.
Looking back, especially after the album released, and all of that is insane. I would have never thought it was going to be like this. Of course, you believed in the music, but you don't know where it's going to take you. So, yeah, it's been wild. It's been wild.
Keno Carelse: Yeah. You know, for me, I had previously performed with Zwide playing for other artists as well. So we always had that lock, you know, drums and bass. That was around the time of ‘Nationality’ and I had heard of Kujenga from other friends so that was kind of my introduction to Kujenga. Once Zwide asked me to play with them I found that the music for me was very in my avenue, you know, so I was also very much allowed to be me.
And I feel that that is the beauty of the band, that everyone is allowed to be themselves. Also every gig is different. Sometimes I’ll see the same faces at gigs and wonder to myself ‘don’t they get tired of the music?’ But for them, it's always a different experience. They always come back.
With the movement growing now, and all that’s happening, what keeps you connected to those grassroots?
Zwide: I think it’s the intention that Owethu mentioned. Maybe it’s because we always knew what we wanted to do music for. Even though there was no manifesto that was built up, and no band charter that everyone had to grasp, everyone in the band understands that music has much more to offer than what we think it does, there’s much more to it than the late stage capitalist consumer culture built around music.
Maybe the fact that we do non-popular music grounds us as well. We enter the same venue entrances and exits as the attendees, we don't need special treatment, that's not what we do it for. There is a mission behind this thing that is much bigger than ourselves, that’s why we can stay grounded.
Matt Rightford: Even though we’ve caught this wave over the past year or two, even if none of these big things were happening for us, we would still be rocking out together. For me personally, playing with Kujenga feels like home. I think that’s how it feels for everyone.
In a more general sense, I think the advantage of being a group vs having a solo project is that there is a lot less ego involved, especially with social media and the way artists have to push themselves. As a group it gives us a bit of freedom to just be friends. We’d be wanting to play together no matter what happens.
Owethu: The people in the spaces we are in as well, that definitely reminds us why we’re doing this. Even to this day we’re reaching bigger spaces and wider spaces, but we’re still finding the same types of people. Having made that clear from the first day, those are the people that are reaching out to us. Even when we weren’t looking for them
We’ve witnessed such a vibrancy in your performances as well as in the relationship that you guys have with your audience. What is that experience like from your side? How would you describe your community?
Zwide: It’s super diverse, and open minded. It doesn’t have to be that they’re young, but there is a youthful energy to it. It’s an energy of being ready for whatever life brings. I guess as a community it's also at a core level “people orientated” - everyone there is not there for selfish reasons, but for communal reasons. We’ve always been appreciative of how respectful our audience has been at shows. We’ve had the displeasure of attending shows and watching audience etiquette deteriorate over time, but our audience has always been respectful and supportive. The easiest way to describe them would be family.
There are so many different reasons why people are entering the experience of the band, whether for political reasons or for just the music itself, people all have their own particular connection to the band. That makes for such a diverse community that shows up to the spaces that we perform in.
Let’s talk about your SAMA Nominated album ‘In The Wake’. What went into creating the album, and what meaning does it hold for you?
Matt: Personally as one of the horn players coming in, In The Wake was an intro to being a part of Kujenga for us. I had been listening to Nationality and knew the guys, but In The Wake kind of birthed us as the seven piece band. With us joining as the horn section it created the pathway for the sound to shift from what it was on Nationality to having that more nostalgic South African Jazz feel to it.
It links back to what I said earlier about feeling like home, it takes me back to when I was in school playing in a jazz band and the local jazz we were playing back then. So for me it just felt like coming home.
Owethu: Sonically the album comes from a lot of reflection on the time that it was being thought about. While we had the foundation of a very South African jazz sound as we did on Nationality, we did explore more - the first big exploration being adding the horns section. There is a little bit more abstract tones and sounds with the instrumentation and that process was pretty cool to go into. It was a very long process recording it, 2 years in and out of the studio and the whole process was about learning throughout. Learning who we are, and how we could lay that out in our instruments.
The album cover for Kujenga’s sophomore album, In The Wake
Zwide: For more of the conceptual background, the title was taken from a book that I came across called “In The Wake: Of Blackness and Being”by Christina Sharpe, an American academic in the field of Black Studies. The title, just those three words, kept ringing in my head throughout the COVID lockdown.
Living in the wake of COVID and seeing how much life had changed because of it was also interesting, because even when the health crisis had gone away, it still felt like people were living in a sense of dread. Outside of the recession and the economic crisis, the scenes that were taking place were quite dreadful - the lynching of George Floyd and the killing of Breonna Taylor in the US, the End SARS protests in Nigeria, the Pro-Democracy protest repression in Eswatini.
We were kind of coming of age around that time as we entered adulthood, and it felt like we were inheriting a world that was just eroding and crumbling between our fingers. A lot of that energy went into producing the music, it was based on social phenomena that we experienced - mass grief, spiritual awakenings, resistance.
But it wasn’t just the doom and dread I was thinking about, I was also thinking about how we got here, and where we hoped to go in light of what we’re currently going through.
I wanted to augment and expand the sound of the four piece band to areas of musicality that we had always loved through listening to local music, music from the UK, from the Black American tradition, music from West Africa. Basically that’s what I was hoping to do.
As we were coming of age I was hoping that the maturity in our playing and musical ability would also show.
In so much that you’ve learnt the subtleties of the work, what’s the biggest thing you’ve learned going from a four piece to a seven piece? What do you learn from each other, how do you push each other?
Zwide: One thing that it helped me to figure out is establishing a musical identity. I used to think being in a band meant ‘The songs are playable, the musicians are competent and that should be enough’. The more we became like a band, we became so inseparable in so many ways, I guess by learning what we were trying to establish musically. Despite our individual talents, would it all make sense together, would it cohere?
And what I learnt is that “thing” could actually just be a factor of time more than a factor of talent. There are many ways now in which we’re playing the music where I think to myself “oh yeah this is how the album should have come out”, and it's not necessarily because we weren't good back then, but because we’ve had so much time together. I guess I’ve just been learning about time being a crucial thing in the development of a band.
Owethu: For me, just allowing that freedom of creativity is a big part. People love Kujenga because they love going to these live shows, and it's very different to what you would hear on Spotify, but even then it could be different to what you heard at the previous show. We are always encouraged to be creative and allow that space, so that people who are coming to the shows are not feeling like it’s getting stale.
Matt: I think through the creativity that Owethu is speaking there is also an accessibility. We’re getting told by people who are coming to our shows that you can come watch a Kujenga show and it has a jazz element to it but it's not necessarily the same as going to a jazz club and seeing a quartet that’s playing the standards or a more bebop driven jazz. If you're a jazz head you know that these cats are burning and that there is incredible playing happening.
The accessibility for people who don't know that world but are still able to experience that feeling through the way that we’re playing - maybe that more open kind of sense of creativity is where that comes from.
The band recently toured London, last November. What was that experience like?
Bonga: Personally it was very crazy to me. There were so many South Africans there which was interesting - I was hearing a lot of Vernac. It was wild to experience that city, it’s such a mix of different people and different cultures. Then came Margate, which was so different. It's strange because it's got an artsy vibe, but imagine a sleepy coastal town - kinda like Muizenberg or Simon’s Town. The gig though was crazy, I was really impressed by the spots that we played at. They were really nice, really welcoming.
Were they aware of Kujenga at all, or was it all new to them?
Bonga: It was new to them, so it was really affirming to have people who didn't even know us, or the music, vibing to the music in such a manner. But yeah, we had a good time. I mean, outside of just playing, we partied a bit. We saw the culture - we saw the roadmen.
What is the Jazz culture like on that side?
Keno: I think it’s very diverse, the whole music culture itself. I think the first night was at this spot called SJQ that’s just like indie vibes, but it was well attended - packed even. It was cool. And also the times that gigs start. There was a jam session that started at like 8/9pm. At the beginning of winter even.
What was the adjustment like coming home after such an experience?
Owethu: I mean, we were on a high so I don't think adjustment wise it was crazy. I know we were tired though. Coming back from the UK we had a couple KZN shows and then Jozi next. So I think we definitely could feel the energy of what it's like to tour. But I think we did our thing. We handled it well, and the last two shows we did of the year, they also went really well. No major adjustments, just straight back into it. There were of course other developments in the band as well.
In terms of Matt and Tamsyn leaving, how did you guys adapt to that change in the band?
Thane Smith: I mean, yeah, they left the band as a team, but I mean they’re still family. I think that the biggest adjustment was probably slotting in new players in their roles. Which wasn’t too crazy, because we’ve had some shows where we’ve had session musicians fill in for us when we can’t make it. But I mean ultimately it was the heartbreak of them leaving we had to get used to.
You mentioned that the making of ‘In The Wake’ was a two year process. As someone on the inside, do you hear a difference in the sound of the album when you have other people playing in the band?
Zwide: Three years was also just enough time for us to even get to a solid place in how we play together. So you can imagine someone else coming through in the middle of that when the band had probably just established a certain way that we approach the performance of the live music.
Fortunately we have a lot of gigs, and each gig comes with an opportunity for that growth to happen. In this city we have top musicians, so you can easily get people to fill in, but yeah, the chemistry takes time. We have had the fortune of having an opportunity to maybe accelerate that time process, by playing so often.
Keno: Even on the outside of the music as well, if you’ve met Tamzyn before and you know her you will hear her somewhere in the music - with Matt as well. I think that is something that I’ll miss.
As we’re entering a new era for Kujenga, how does the new era play into the EP which you’ve just announced?
Zwide: I don't think it does that much, outside of new music. We have three new players since we recorded the previous album, but era wise, at the very core, it's still very much Kujenga, as in who we are and what we represent. Although the songs have a different feeling, sonically, it still very much comes from the same place of inspiration and you know, messaging that we want to make sure our listeners or anybody who's new understands.
You mentioned that ‘In The Wake’ was a coming-of-age album for the band, and also a reflection of COVID and that time. How would you then contrast that with the new EP?
Zwide: I think the new EP probably isn't so focused on the structural experiences that encouraged and inspired ‘In The Wake’ as much. It definitely speaks on it, but maybe not so intensely as the last album was in terms of discourse. So the one kind of thing we're trying to do is figure out ways in which these things can be communicated, but maybe not so heavy handed.
The sound is the kind of marker of the new era. The previous sound had a local South African - particularly like an Eastern/Western Cape jazz influence. This one is more continental and takes inspiration from the region of West Africa, and two distinct sounds from there; Mande and AfroBeat music. And that is just a portion of the EP - but that’s all I can reveal for now.
The ways in which a conversation can be sparked from this album might not be the same way in which it was sparked with the previous album. I think the audience has more room or space to find their own kind of experience with the music, instead of connecting it directly to what was shared from a very personal perspective of a systemic context.
The message behind the music will always be the same, but is this a new way of phrasing the message?
Owethu: I believe so. What the last album really kind of focused on messaging wise, was very structural, systemic, right down to the issue. With the new EP we obviously want people to know that what we're playing comes from an understanding of an issue, another systemic and social issue we're going through as a country and within the context of the continent, and the rest of the world.
But that's kind of like contextual instead of like the foreground. We are linking the message as part of our inspirations. The songs in themselves have their own meanings and inspirations, and then it goes into a broader message - that's where the elements of Kujenga come in.
How would you say that message was received in the UK?
Keno: A lot of the gigs were filled with people who didn’t know what Kujenga was. But from the reception that we got, like after the gig or, like in the breaks, was really positive. And with Zwide or Owethu speaking about the music in the show, I think they really got it.
Bonga: I think we, around the world, are seeing the same things, maybe from different perspectives, but the same problems in the world. Of course, London’s also got such a diverse group of people, you know? So I think that, firstly, they were very open to music from a different place. Our music was very different to music that they’re used to, because there are a lot of people from around the Afro-Disapora living there.. But to hear live South African music, I think it's something that they don't have as much of. So it was really cool to see that they were receptive to that. Our music comes from a particular place, and I think they also really identified and resonated with that.
Of course, the UK has their own problems and all of that, every country's got their problems, but I think that it's really cathartic for people to have people speak about that openly. I think it's quite rare in a place like Europe generally, actually, especially in London.
They're quite a constricted people, you know, just culturally. So for people to be willing to say the things as they are and as they see them, I think was something that really resonated with them. And I think through the music, the way that it was conveyed really hit home to a lot of people there.
What do you think we, in the scope of South African culture, contribute to the landscape of the African Diaspora?
Zwide: Obviously every region of the world is dealing with some of the same crises that we're thinking about. From the last album to this new one, which still reflects on how anti-blackness affects the world, but in particular the way ot makes black people who have different backgrounds feel as if they're separate from each other. There's a hierarchy, particularly in this country where we've got this thing of South African exceptionalism as well. We think of ourselves as being better just because our white people stayed or something.
We’re trying to think beyond those nationalist lines. A thing that happens quite a lot in South Africa in terms of xenophobia and afrophobia, which is connected to an antiblackness that gives birth to these things. But also, we’re trying to look ways we can bridge that divide and embrace other cultures.
Was there a specific reason why you guys went with a West-African sound for this EP, or the new single, Ransome?
Zwide: It wasn't like a specific reason that I had to start there, the inspiration for the song just happened to be Fela Kuti and Tony Allen, architects of Afrobeat music. Fela Kuti is one of the most important musicians in our field. The West African economy, particularly Nigeria, has had a lot of infrastructure to promote themselves. I've been listening to Afrobeat for some time, after initially being introduced to Afrobeats - the modern version. The former sound came into my life like 10 or 11 years ago. I just loved what I was hearing.
So I just wanted to pay homage to Fela Kuti, being so influential in that sense, and also speak on embracing other cultures, just as he was taking aspects of high life music from Ghana, he was taking aspects of funk from the United States, the Black American tradition, tying the African diaspora together. I wanted to honour that and the beautiful history of African music and its Anti-colonial presence. Those are just some of the things that we’re thinking about in terms of Ransome.
Leading on from Ransome, what else can we expect from the new EP?
Thane: With Ransome we touched on the Nigerian region. The rest of the EP, we’re kind of traversing a bit further out. Back home to the south, but also up towards another part of West Africa. There's an intention of paying homage to our inspirations, to the sounds that we kind of learned from and obviously emulate and try to make our own in that sense. But yeah if I can just keep it short and sweet, man, we’re exploring Africa, so think of that when you listen to the music, you know. You’ll hear it.
The first single off Kujenga’s upcoming EP, Ransome, releases August 29th
How do you view the current cultural landscape of the city, and where do you see it going from here?
Keno: Personally, I've been gigging from a young age, since high school. If I look at other musicians older than us, like Benjamin Jeptha, Keenan Arends, the Bokani Dyers, all these people studied at UCT like us, and we were all looking up to them while studying. But now they're not in Cape Town. If I ask myself why would they leave? There's just a lot of better opportunities in Joburg. They live there and they thrive there.
And if I'm looking at where I am today and like my journey as an individual playing with many different artists, like all of these different artists have their own journeys, within Cape Town, it's either good or it's bad.
I often ask myself what I can do to help - Not that I'm saying that I am going to be the answer - but what can I do to just push it a bit further? Cape Town is just a weird city. I think there's a lot, but there's not a lot of work for musicians. But there’s so much talent here.
Thane: There's a reason why we play more outside of Cape Town than we are in our home City. There's a lot of talent, but just such poor infrastructure exists in Cape Town.
Whether it's no venues, poor management of existing venues, it's just very discouraging in the space as an artist already.
To have to also deal with places that don't necessarily take it as seriously as it should - or when there are places that do take it seriously, it just doesn't last in this economy. So to touch on where we can be and what can happen, I really do feel like it's in the musician's hands.
We've always said, we want to create a system or a structure in here that we see is missing - that structure to support new up and coming acts, since there’s also this ageism thing we’re dealing with. You always see the same cats getting booked for gigs and there isn’t really a space for the up-and-coming guys.
Bonga: I came here from Gqeberha to study and look, it's a typical thing for homies from GQ people to leave the city. You almost have to make something of yourself, not even just in music, but in art .And in a weird way, Cape Town reminds me of that same energy.
Because you've got so much talent - If you take a walk down Lower Main or Long Street on a Friday there’s music everywhere. But you can’t even breakeven for just a gig, bro. That's insane. But then another thing I keep on my mind is that Cape Town is cliquey and everything exists in silos.
I think part of the infrastructure problem is that there's a lack of connectedness. You're not going to find as much of a situation where you've got a jazz gig and hip hop, or jazz and rock, or whatever the case is. If anything, that would benefit the music and the culture more generally, because different people get exposed to different music and that's healthy for the scene for our artistry. It’s beneficial for everyone because it helps make it more feasible.
So I think the economics of it make Cape Town very hard to, firstly, be a musician and exist as a musician, but also exist as a venue.
Zwide: Artistry wise, I think it's in a great place right now. I don't think it's ever been in a terrible place, I think what we struggle with is infrastructure. If the external factors are so heavy and play too much of a burden for us to even have capacity to think, or be creative or be free, it makes sense why sometimes we go through dry patches, lack of innovation or have the same stuff coming out.
Maybe that was the case somewhere in the 2010s sometime, or at least here in Cape Town. As a newer generation, as a Gen Z generation, as we’re becoming the custodians of our artforms and our culture, it's been so interesting to see the way in which so many talented people have just emerged.
“I didn't know that there was this film maker that was making incredible projects right next door, I didn't know that there was a publication that was writing about music right under our nose” - that’s what we’re experiencing now.
One of the remarks that we’ve often gotten is being highlighted as a marker of this new generation of black improvised music, and the one thing I always say to that is that we come from a community of some of the most talented musicians that you will ever hear, there is so much more out there. Not just here in this city, but in other parts of the country. I’m hoping that the world would open up for them. If not we’ll figure out a way to crack the world open so they can see these incredible musicians.
Kujenga is more than just a band. It’s a group of individuals that have set out to make a mark on the landscape of the country. Its a family that has grown past the members that make up the band. Its a movement, a community.
I didn’t know what it was until I saw them perform. We lost our individuality, and embraced the music. We were led on a journey. We became raw energy, if only for that moment.
Kujenga means ‘to build’, and we can’t wait to see what they manage to build with their momentum. Hopefully all of us will be there as well, building with them.
